The Nextspace™ Broadcast

[Rachana, Host] Welcome to another episode of The Next Space Broadcast, powered by Reflex Aerospace. I'm your host, Rachana Mamidi. And today we have Eugene Grant in with us. He is the CEO and co-founder of UVL Robotics. UVL Robotics provides smart, drone based solutions with artificial intelligence for indoor as well as outdoor logistics. And they have a global presence and they're currently across the U.S., Oman, across Europe, in Turkey, as well as Abu Dhabi.
Welcome to the podcast, Eugene.

[Eugene, UVL Robotics] Thank you for the invitation. Hello, everyone.

[Rachana, Host] You have two very interesting products. One is the fully autonomous indoor inventory system using drones. And the second one is very interesting from a satellite applications perspective, which is a fully autonomous last mile drone delivery system. So maybe we can dive deep into that.
So I'm assuming you're using GBS positioning obviously for your last mile, you know, drone delivery system, but did you ever consider using satellites or satellite applications in any other way for the system currently?

[Eugene, UVL Robotics] Currently we don't use satellite platforms apart from G.P.S. positioning. So the GPS positioning is the main component of our system to navigate. And, but yeah, we would like to try. We are looking for such solutions like satellites so as to improve their ability and the connectivity because we deliver cargo within cities and all kinds of different parcels.
So we have to reach areas which are not covered precisely by G.P.S. We face a lot of weak signals, we are faced with and struggling with latency and we have limited bandwidth. So yeah, we currently do not use it but we would like to try.

[Rachana, Host] That is very interesting. Did you face these problems with latency, bandwidth and reliability mostly in remote locations or populated locations or what kind of geographical regions do you usually face this problem in?

[Eugene, UVL Robotics] We face such issues in different scenarios. Because right now we are providing the last mile delivery within city limits, but we also have the use cases for out of city limits. Let's say, when we need to deliver for long range, let's say, up to 550 kilometres - we need to deliver some medicines to hard to reach areas which are too far away from the distribution centre.
And of course, we would like to keep the right signal and keep the reliable signal during our flight. But sometimes when faced with GPS denial or when beyond visual line of sight, we also want to rely on our visual, inertial odometry but it's not enough in some cases. So that's why we are happy to implement and to try such solutions in the satellite area because we are definitely working on the reliability of our operations on a daily basis. But of course, in other scenarios other than city limits, we also face areas which sometimes have weak signals and we would like to eliminate all latency in these areas. There are just a lot of different airports and military areas. You have mountains sometimes when you are looking at Muscat and in Oman also the seas, and a lot of terrains. What I am trying to say is
connectivity can be improved in different areas.

[Rachana, Host] Yeah, absolutely. Terrain of course plays a large role. But do you think with 5G coming up, would you be getting better connectivity in terms of reliability, bandwidth as well and latency within city limits? Or do you think you might still need satellite connectivity within city limits even after 5G?

[Eugene, UVL Robotics] Regarding 5G, we just did some analysis. Of course, for radio frequency and to transfer more data on air. And of course it has helped a lot to reduce a lot of EOS margin errors. Of course this has helped to have a positive impact on removing all latency. And sometimes, it's useful when you do not rely on GPS denied odometry during the flight. But to use 5G, we should have 5G infrastructure everywhere. And of course I know there's a lot of companies taking care of it but now it's not working as ideally as we want to. Because we are on the ground right now and we already are providing that service, we would like to be sure that all our orders will be shipped on time, in full. So that's what we are testing right now. It's just drills. I mean, in regards to 5G.

[Rachana, Host] This is very interesting. Earlier I was under the impression that the reason for drone delivery systems to require satellite connectivity is the same as, let's say, for consumer broadband or consumer connectivity, you know, because mostly consumers in remote locations usually opt for satcom, either in remote locations or people such as boat owners or yacht owners or people on the high seas.
But it's very interesting that you would also consider 5G within city limits because of these blind spots and sometimes unreliable connectivity. So this is very interesting, but have you also considered during your internal discussions, consider using satellite imagery? Of course, you use Google Maps, I'm sure for planning and everything. But in addition to that, satellite imagery in different bands or very high resolution imagery.

[Eugene, UVL Robotics] Yes. Yes, exactly. Of course, we are using and analysing a lot of Google images because we do a lot of preparation before we start providing this service because we would like to be sure how the route looks under real conditions. Because sometimes if you are just analysing the Google images for your route, you realise there would suddenly appear some buildings and towers and power lines which are missing in the Google images because a lot of constructions are not captured in real time and thereby we face some latency. But for us, we first double check because we would like to be sure that we deliver in time in full without any risk to humans, without any risk for infrastructure. Because it's something new, this operation of our company. Of course, I am just emphasising that it is good to have those images, but it's not enough for us right now.

[Rachana, Host] Yeah, absolutely. You guys are actually moving in three dimensional space, so we have to be extra careful. I totally get that. I know you told me about this but we did not very seriously dive into it. You were just considering using satellite applications. But do you think there is a difference in requirement of these satellite applications?
Be it imagery or connectivity between highly populated and sparsely populated delivery areas? Maybe your warehouses are located in sparsely populated areas or some part of your whole supply chain is distributed. So do you see differences in requirements across differently populated areas?

[Eugene, UVL Robotics] Yeah, that's a good question. Yes, there is a difference for us. There is definitely a difference. We are delivering long range in the most populated spaces and we have a lot more demand for such connectivity in areas which are not covered by good GPS and connectivity and sometimes it's out of city limits. I'm just making an observation that sometimes cities like Muscat or Abu Dhabi have good coverage right now. But yeah there is a difference.
If we are talking about city limits, I have to mention again that if we look at Muscat there is a lot of terrain along our way - a lot of mountains, a lot of areas which are near the sea. Sometimes we are struggling to even deliver within city limits and we would like to have more coverage. But the big demand comes from areas out of city limits with weak signal and sometimes areas with not much satellite coverage.

[Rachana, Host] Okay, that's interesting. So it seems to be a combination of factors such as terrain and delivery area population. Okay.

[Eugene, UVL Robotics] Exactly.. And that's mobile connectivity with not so much equipment. I mean, not much mobile equipment which covers the areas. So in some areas you cannot use 4G and 3G. And it's very difficult to get the picture in real time and you just can only analyse the telemetry. Just where are the drones right now, at what height, what is the source of energy, the battery status and so on. But sometimes it would be great to receive more high resolution images in real time to see what's going on during the flight.

[Rachana, Host] That's very interesting. You guys, UVL Robotics is like one of the pioneers, in all these fully automated smart drone solutions and you have recently also deployed so many drones and your service areas are also expanding. But do you think in general drone delivery companies be it UVL Robotics or in general drone delivery companies that are operating in a similar space. Do you think they would see any added value of owning satellite infrastructure, instead of using an existing third party space infrastructure, be it satellite satcom satellites or satellites with an imaging payload? Do you see at any point actually owning a satellite constellation making sense to you?

[Eugene, UVL Robotics] Regarding the business models, we are just a last mile delivery provider. We basically would like to own our satellite equipment and we would like to use it for feedback services. But a reason against that is it involves a lot of maintenance and expertise, right? And therefore it can be better to just use such services and we would like to collaborate with such providers. Like you mentioned, it's better for us because we've been asked how to use it, how to maintain it. And to sit up and answer some simple questions on what's going on, we have faced some issues. I think each company should be focused on the areas which they know very well. UVL right now is now a provider and we are strong in our expertise in logistics. We know how to build the right infrastructure for logistics operations. And we are also good at constructing drones. And of course those who know the satellite market industry well should be a value add for us. Those who can explain how to approach that and how to use it in the right conditions. So we are looking forward to collaborating with such companies and that's to get more ready for our business of last-mile drone delivery.

[Rachana, Host] Absolutely, owning satellites or commissioning satellites involves a lot of upfront costs. And of course, it does not make sense for everyone. But yeah, I just was wondering in case there is some obscure reason that I was not aware of that would make sense, but it looks like it's easier for you guys to just offload it to somebody else.
And when you want to procure these services from a third party, be it satellite imagery or satellite connectivity, how much budget are you willing to allocate. Maybe in the order of magnitude, what kind of amount or money are you willing to spend on these services?

[Eugene, UVL Robotics] Oh, it's a very good question. So to be honest, it's difficult to answer it right now because it depends on different factors. So first, we are just charging our clients for fulfilled orders, right? And so we are calculating the total cost of ownership. It includes different types of cost which is not only just the operations expenses like labour organisational and logistics, but we are also talking about different kinds of connectivity. What I understand is that it should be a part of this cost, the total cost estimation. For example, we should calculate how many sea routes we are servicing per day per week. It's difficult to answer right now because we need to look at all overall costs and understand how these implementation costs are distributed across all different routes. But I don't think it should be in big numbers when comparing with the labour such as amorization and depreciation of capital expenses like infrastructure and drones. But it should be just a small part of the OpEx. And of course it depends on the business model. As a provider you should know whether it is going to a one-time service or a subscription model or a hybrid model.
For example when I am approaching an internet service provider company, it is free of cost for them while they are charging me per data traffic. This is one kind of a business model. For a monthly subscription, you are understanding what is your priority and whether this is comfortable for me or not, because it depends on the traffic we consume. It is the same for drone services too. We need to understand the business model and we should know
what percentage of overall operational costs would be comfortable for all parties concerned.

[Rachana, Host] Oh yeah, a subscription model, of course. Now I realise it makes the most sense for your kind of services. That's interesting. And now you're currently riding on these 4G networks and potentially 5G networks for your drone delivery, for your communication between the drones. So how do you currently handle cybersecurity?

[Eugene, UVL Robotics] This is also a good question. So for me, it's the same like with any web network. So of course we understand and we realise that risks happen. But for me it's like the same story with verification, authorisation in encryption where you can save your network from any risks. They are the main elements of any security system. So no special rocket science here. It's the same as any web network.

[Rachana, Host] That's interesting because often in Satcom or when, building satellites - maybe for satcom the security is much higher because a lot of people are riding on your data - but usually in imaging satellites or these low criticality satellites, unfortunately in the satellite industry, cybersecurity is more of an afterthought. People don't really focus on it, but we are trying to incorporate this from the beginning, from the design stage itself. So we're very curious what kind of security potential users and users of the satellite applications might expect. Oh, but like you said, it looks like the usual key exchange and a very decent RSA encryption or a good enough 256 bit encryption is going to be sufficient.

[Eugene, UVL Robotics] Just to add from my side that the security threat is present in any web network. And in our stories, it's not different. I mentioned three ways to save a network from such risk and for me it's enough.
I don't expect that someone can guarantee 100% of full security. Because from the perspective of the side that is trying to break this system, they will find another solution and it's just natural. They either generate a new kind of virus or something like that. Every time we're faced with web networks, it's the same. Don't expect resolving the issue away radically and that's my perspective

[Rachana, Host] That's good to know. In terms of cybersecurity, I think we all just need to keep playing catch up and look at what the stakes are because soon there's going to be quantum and in the post quantum crypto world we'll all have to up our security game. So, I think it's a learning process for all and that's good to know.
So one last question I have for you, Eugene. I'm sure there are also insurance premiums that you guys pay to get all your assets insured and maybe third party insurances. So how do you see the whole insurance plans or the premiums getting affected when satellite connectivity gets thrown in? Because maybe the insurance claims would increase because of the so-called perceived increase in cyber threat.

[Eugene, UVL Robotics] To be honest, I don't see any issues here. So for me and for my company, if someone can suggest and implement the right premium for that while explaining the value, we will accept this and we'll start paying for that. But just to emphasise, if we are talking about the satellite and cyber security, the threat is present everywhere. And I don't think that it's radically changed in this area. So how we work with insurance is difficult to say since I'm not an expert in this area. But I'm expecting for someone from an insurance company to suggest a solution for this area and I will have a look and will be willing to discuss with them. So for me it's not an issue right now. I don't see any issues.
Yeah, that makes sense because you don't really consider including satellite connectivity to increase the cyberthreats. Of course, it's not going to, you know, impact the insurance premiums or the claims. So that's good to know. But that's a very nice point. Or maybe we should also get someone from the whole insurance space, insurance space to talk about this because very often engineers are all often talking about space and tech and we don't really discuss all these aspects.

[Rachana, Host] But that's a great idea, I think, for the next episode, one of the next episodes, we should get someone from this space.
So Eugene, it's been a really fun and very enlightening conversation. You shared so many insights and I hope this enables us in building better satellites and in building better platforms. So ultimately, all the benefits and all the decisions we make will positively trickle down to the end users like drone delivery companies like you who will ultimately use these services. So thank you so much for all these insights and thank you so much for your time today.

[Eugene, UVL Robotics] Thank you. And thank you so much for your invitation. Thank you for all the good questions. Sometimes I just try to think about it and we're just brainstorming because all these things are key elements of our last mile delivery system. And we just emphasise the challenges and we are happy to eliminate a lot of issues. So we are looking forward to collaborating with such companies who work on satellite platforms. We definitely see a lot of value for us and for our business and industry. So thank you for the invitation.

[Rachana, Host] We really hope that we can find some synergies in future and hopefully work together again.